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Nuclear Fallout - what to expect


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jeff   posted:4/20/2011 3:17:20 PM  (Reply)
 Nothing to see here...*shivers
tapuout4985   posted:4/20/2011 4:04:03 PM  (Reply)
Just my opinion, but she doesn't know what she is talking about.  She sounds like someone who is repeating something told to her by someone who knew what they were talking about but is trying to repeat it while also making it sound as terrible as possible.  So far the Japanese disaster and the Chernobyl disaster are incomparable because of the different natures of the damage and the design of the reactors.  The Japanese reactors are boiling-water reactors and don't use cooling pools like she says, they use a closed loop pressurized coolant system.  They also don't use fuel rods, they use fuel plates.  This is basic stuff that anyone with a clue wouldn't screw up.  Chernobyl was bad because all the cooling water flashed to steam and ripped apart the reactor containment vessel and launched fissionable material and fission by-products into the atmosphere which created the fallout that landed around the plant.  The Japanese reactor vessels weren't ruptured and even though there is damage to the fuel plates the reactor vessels are intact and containing the fissionable material.  There is one plant that has a leak in its cooling system and was losing water, but that is no where near the danger posed by Chernobyl.Also inaccurate is her claim that plutonium will spread through the atmosphere across all of North America.  Plutonium is super dense, and is too heavy to ride the air currents like that.  The only radiatctive isotopes that can cross the ocean on the air currents are nitrogen and argon isotopes which have half-lives measured in minutes and not the thousands of years people worry about.  Caesium is dangerous because plants can absorb it through the soil and it has a long half-life (Cs-135 has a half-life of 2.3 million years), but the process of absorption into plants can be counter-acted with high potassium fertilizers.  Caesium also undergoes beta-decay and not gamma-decay.  Beta particles are just an electron or positron and can't penetrate clothing or skin.  Caesium has to be ingested to be a danger.  In fact, a piece of paper is enough shielding to completely block all beta-particles from being detected on a Geiger counter.Not saying the Japanese nuclear disaster isn't bad, but it is no where near the level of Chernobyl and she doesn't know what she is talking about.
godlypunk   posted:4/20/2011 4:33:27 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
tapuout4985  posted:4/20/2011 4:04:03 PM  (Reply)
Just my opinion, but she doesn't know what she is talking about.  She sounds like someone who is repeating something told to her by someone who knew what they were talking about but is trying to repeat it while also making it sound as terrible as possible.  So far the Japanese disaster and the Chernobyl disaster are incomparable because of the different natures of the damage and the design of the reactors.  The Japanese reactors are boiling-water reactors and don't use cooling pools like she says, they use a closed loop pressurized coolant system.  They also don't use fuel rods, they use fuel plates.  This is basic stuff that anyone with a clue wouldn't screw up.  Chernobyl was bad because all the cooling water flashed to steam and ripped apart the reactor containment vessel and launched fissionable material and fission by-products into the atmosphere which created the fallout that landed around the plant.  The Japanese reactor vessels weren't ruptured and even though there is damage to the fuel plates the reactor vessels are intact and containing the fissionable material.  There is one plant that has a leak in its cooling system and was losing water, but that is no where near the danger posed by Chernobyl.Also inaccurate is her claim that plutonium will spread through the atmosphere across all of North America.  Plutonium is super dense, and is too heavy to ride the air currents like that.  The only radiatctive isotopes that can cross the ocean on the air currents are nitrogen and argon isotopes which have half-lives measured in minutes and not the thousands of years people worry about.  Caesium is dangerous because plants can absorb it through the soil and it has a long half-life (Cs-135 has a half-life of 2.3 million years), but the process of absorption into plants can be counter-acted with high potassium fertilizers.  Caesium also undergoes beta-decay and not gamma-decay.  Beta particles are just an electron or positron and can't penetrate clothing or skin.  Caesium has to be ingested to be a danger.  In fact, a piece of paper is enough shielding to completely block all beta-particles from being detected on a Geiger counter.Not saying the Japanese nuclear disaster isn't bad, but it is no where near the level of Chernobyl and she doesn't know what she is talking about.
Why then did Japan give the disaster level the same level of that of Chernobyl? Why do they keep saying "fuel rods" on the news if there aren't any in the Japan facility? They have been calling them "rods" not plates. The radiation from Chernobyl is still sitting in parts of France where the mushrooms and wild boar are still not safe for consumption. Chernobyl scattered radiation very widely.Not trying to be arguementative, just curious. You seem to know alot about this stuff.
tapuout4985   posted:4/20/2011 6:42:12 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
godlypunk  posted:4/20/2011 4:33:27 PM  (Reply)
Why then did Japan give the disaster level the same level of that of Chernobyl? Why do they keep saying "fuel rods" on the news if there aren't any in the Japan facility? They have been calling them "rods" not plates. The radiation from Chernobyl is still sitting in parts of France where the mushrooms and wild boar are still not safe for consumption. Chernobyl scattered radiation very widely.Not trying to be arguementative, just curious. You seem to know alot about this stuff.
 The disaster level is mostly based on the damage to the plant and how operative the reactor will be in the future.  No doubt about it the Japanese reactors are now useless.The fuel rods thing is a common misconception used because uranium is transported in rods.  It is being used accurately when talking about Fukushima because they have storage there that actually does contain rods of uranium.  The radiation that is still all over Europe and what is responsible for the high levels right at the Chernobyl plant is Caesium.  The danger of Caesium is that it is absorbed by plants and travels through the ecosystem through the food chain.  Cs-135 beta-decays which isn't dangerous as an external radiation but is very bad when ingested because Cs-135 stays in the body the whole time and the beta-particles penetrate the soft tissue of the internal organs even though they can't penetrate the skin.
tapuout4985   posted:4/20/2011 7:12:58 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
godlypunk  posted:4/20/2011 4:33:27 PM  (Reply)
Why then did Japan give the disaster level the same level of that of Chernobyl? Why do they keep saying "fuel rods" on the news if there aren't any in the Japan facility? They have been calling them "rods" not plates. The radiation from Chernobyl is still sitting in parts of France where the mushrooms and wild boar are still not safe for consumption. Chernobyl scattered radiation very widely.Not trying to be arguementative, just curious. You seem to know alot about this stuff.
Chernobyl was such a bad disaster because of the poor design of the reactor.  Chernobyl had a positive fuel temperature coefficient, which means as temperature goes up the reactor produces more power.  The boiling water reactors in Japan had a negative fuel temperature coefficient so as the temperature goes up the reactor produces less power.  The Chernobyl disaster had a chain of events that involved water boiling in the coolant channels creating a steam void which reduced cooling and caused power and temperature to increase which caused more coolant to flash to steam.  Power spiked like crazy, somebody tried to SCRAM the reactor which displaced more coolant and made temperature and reactor power go up even more, and the result was all the remaining coolant in the reactor vessel flashed to steam causing the "explosion" of the reactor vessel.  That explosion is what threw fuel, decay-products, pieces of control rods, and the graphite moderator all over the place.Japan's problem was heat produced from the decay of fission-products after the reactor shutdown.  With no electricity to power the coolant pumps water couldn't be cycled through the reactor vessel effectively.  I think the Japanese reactors actually had a small steam powered pump for emergency use, but I'm not sure on that.  Even if they did it wouldn't do much good because of the volume of water that needs to be pumped through the system.  The heat from fission-product decay is what caused the damge to the fuel, and the release of hydrogen from the system caused the explosion that destroyed the building and released the radioactive gases into the atmosphere.  The "Fukushima 50" received dangerous levels of radiation because of their proximity to the reactor containment vessel and the gases released from the hydrogen venting, but the spread of radioactive isotopes to the environment and the area those isotopes cover will be far less impacting than the Chernobl disaster.
tapuout4985   posted:4/20/2011 7:15:53 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
tapuout4985  posted:4/20/2011 6:42:12 PM  (Reply)
 The disaster level is mostly based on the damage to the plant and how operative the reactor will be in the future.  No doubt about it the Japanese reactors are now useless.The fuel rods thing is a common misconception used because uranium is transported in rods.  It is being used accurately when talking about Fukushima because they have storage there that actually does contain rods of uranium.  The radiation that is still all over Europe and what is responsible for the high levels right at the Chernobyl plant is Caesium.  The danger of Caesium is that it is absorbed by plants and travels through the ecosystem through the food chain.  Cs-135 beta-decays which isn't dangerous as an external radiation but is very bad when ingested because Cs-135 stays in the body the whole time and the beta-particles penetrate the soft tissue of the internal organs even though they can't penetrate the skin.
Also, people often confused the control rods for fuel rods.  The control rods contain neutron absorbing material which is used to shutdown the reactor.  In most reactor designs the fuel is stationary and the control rods are what do the moving to determine reactor power.  The Chernobyl plant did have fuel rods and the memory of that disaster has pretty much engrained the idea of fuel rods into the world's vocabulary, even when it isn't appropriate.  
jeff   posted:4/21/2011 12:20:27 AM  (Reply)
 Heya Tapout. Are these reliable?Been watching the fairewinds.com videos since he started making them. I don't know if he is considered an activist in the same way as Helen Caldicott, but he sure as hell doesn't seem to believe anything coming from the government concerning the disaster, hence the production of these videos. Right now he is just telling everyone to wash their vegetables and to not drink so much milk. To me, he seems more reliable than what I hear in the news. I'm just hoping nothing nasty happens to him like Matt Simmons from the Gulf Oil spill investigation: welcometoafreeworld.blogspot.com/2010/08/what-matt-simmons-said-about-oil-spill.html
spiritech0   posted:4/21/2011 10:15:09 AM  (Reply)
This one teaches who's in charge of information:http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/apr/17/gagging-order-journalists-jailAnd this one is for conversations about the weather... lol http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~tcanty/hysplit/
tapuout4985   posted:4/21/2011 2:59:00 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
jeff  posted:4/21/2011 12:20:27 AM  (Reply)
 Heya Tapout. Are these reliable?Been watching the fairewinds.com videos since he started making them. I don't know if he is considered an activist in the same way as Helen Caldicott, but he sure as hell doesn't seem to believe anything coming from the government concerning the disaster, hence the production of these videos. Right now he is just telling everyone to wash their vegetables and to not drink so much milk. To me, he seems more reliable than what I hear in the news. I'm just hoping nothing nasty happens to him like Matt Simmons from the Gulf Oil spill investigation: welcometoafreeworld.blogspot.com/2010/08/what-matt-simmons-said-about-oil-spill.html
Actually, yes.  I've read some reports by this guy in the past and he is usually a good source of information (although having now watched a video of him I think I'll stick with reading his reports, he must have a negative Charisma modifier).  In the beginning of the video he hints at the rating of the disaster being based off the damage to the fuel and not the impact to the environment.  I also like that his comparisions of Fukushima with Chernobyl are based off of the government controlled release of information and not the similarity, or lack thereof, of the disaster.
godlypunk   posted:4/22/2011 2:26:43 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
tapuout4985  posted:4/21/2011 2:59:00 PM  (Reply)
Actually, yes.  I've read some reports by this guy in the past and he is usually a good source of information (although having now watched a video of him I think I'll stick with reading his reports, he must have a negative Charisma modifier).  In the beginning of the video he hints at the rating of the disaster being based off the damage to the fuel and not the impact to the environment.  I also like that his comparisions of Fukushima with Chernobyl are based off of the government controlled release of information and not the similarity, or lack thereof, of the disaster.
First off, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Nice to hear it.I have to say though that I'd love to see a world without these kind of reactors all together. But unless population greatly decreases or is managed to a lower level, these kinds of things will likely continue. Despite the new safety of the reactors being built today, there is no real fail safe from mega disasters. If the world is changing to becoming a more volatile place, we are in no way prepared for it. It's heartbreaking to see areas of the world laid waste because of our insatiable need for energy, food, etc.
tapuout4985   posted:4/22/2011 7:03:07 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
godlypunk  posted:4/22/2011 2:26:43 PM  (Reply)
First off, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Nice to hear it.I have to say though that I'd love to see a world without these kind of reactors all together. But unless population greatly decreases or is managed to a lower level, these kinds of things will likely continue. Despite the new safety of the reactors being built today, there is no real fail safe from mega disasters. If the world is changing to becoming a more volatile place, we are in no way prepared for it. It's heartbreaking to see areas of the world laid waste because of our insatiable need for energy, food, etc.
Yeah, it is really crazy how our desire for electricity can override any sort of comon sense.  I'm not against nuclear power, but there is a failure of logic in putting a nuclear reactor in an earthquake zone.


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