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Speciation: We Need to be Prey


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Levinus   posted:6/23/2012 8:32:53 AM  (Reply)
This isn't really paranormal in nature, but it might stir some interesting questions and discussion that, in other circles, would never be addressed with any seriousness whatsoever.
Inbreeding, for those of you that are unfamiliar, is the process by which reproduction concentrates similar genetic makeup. Basically, no new genes are introduced and variation is dependent upon mutation. Plants do it a lot. Some people do it, though it isn't recommended.
There is also a concept of unchecked breeding whereby genetics, without a process of elimination, are diluted. Anyone who has read anything on agriculture, DNR reports on various species, or even taken a biology course at one time or another, is fully aware that predators exist. We are raised with the general conception that predators are mean, merciless, bloodthirsty creatures. Perhaps they are. However, they do have an important role.
Predators thin the herd. The weak and stupid are removed, which guarantees the success of the survivors. While scientists fully agree that predators, or some process of selection (disease, blight, etc) are a natural process, why don't they ever admit it applies to humans?
I would like to propose that humans…as a species…are collectively becoming an anomaly. An anomaly in the sense that we now have characteristics that are undeserving of survival. How many overweight people do you see? People with diabetes? Heart disease? Even high blood pressure? All of which have genetic predispositions?
I'm not saying these people need to be killed. Not at all. Particularly because I myself have a genetic likelihood of developing most of those. But I'm proposing the question, do we need predators? Are we developing traits that don't have a place in our evolution? Are we stunting our own development by not being prey?

ufoz   posted:6/23/2012 10:50:54 AM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Levinus  posted:6/23/2012 8:32:53 AM  (Reply)
This isn't really paranormal in nature, but it might stir some interesting questions and discussion that, in other circles, would never be addressed with any seriousness whatsoever.
Inbreeding, for those of you that are unfamiliar, is the process by which reproduction concentrates similar genetic makeup. Basically, no new genes are introduced and variation is dependent upon mutation. Plants do it a lot. Some people do it, though it isn't recommended.
There is also a concept of unchecked breeding whereby genetics, without a process of elimination, are diluted. Anyone who has read anything on agriculture, DNR reports on various species, or even taken a biology course at one time or another, is fully aware that predators exist. We are raised with the general conception that predators are mean, merciless, bloodthirsty creatures. Perhaps they are. However, they do have an important role.
Predators thin the herd. The weak and stupid are removed, which guarantees the success of the survivors. While scientists fully agree that predators, or some process of selection (disease, blight, etc) are a natural process, why don't they ever admit it applies to humans?
I would like to propose that humans…as a species…are collectively becoming an anomaly. An anomaly in the sense that we now have characteristics that are undeserving of survival. How many overweight people do you see? People with diabetes? Heart disease? Even high blood pressure? All of which have genetic predispositions?
I'm not saying these people need to be killed. Not at all. Particularly because I myself have a genetic likelihood of developing most of those. But I'm proposing the question, do we need predators? Are we developing traits that don't have a place in our evolution? Are we stunting our own development by not being prey?

its funny you should bring this up, I happen to agree and am in the process of planning a paper on the subject. its important to understand the basics and biology and ecology before looking at this. through cultural anthropology you can see that a lot of the problems you describe are happening in more "modern" areas of the world, with many different reasons. unfortunately we do have a predator, it just happens to be other humans. if you went back in time and stopped the invention of the car, plane and train, and stop individual populations from spreading and intergrating "gene flow" by now we would have several sub. species of the Genus Homo.
Garuhn   posted:6/23/2012 5:15:06 PM  (Reply)
I agree with both of you. We seem to be beyond worrying about predators(besides ourselves, which is pretty bad on it's own). Tons of people die every year, maybe just not enough. Maybe that's why people really want to see some kind of "unforseen" disaster. Everyone gets excited talking about 2012, zombie apocaplypses, nukes, wars. Sometimes I wonder if we all secretely(and some not so secretely) just want us all to die. However, I'm not quite sure where I stand on this.
gary107   posted:6/24/2012 12:24:48 AM  (Reply)
we may have predators, the Roswell ladies were said to be transporting human [our kind] organs. Perhaps, five or six digits make no difference. Spare parts are where you find them. My humour is what it is.
Jaxerback   posted:6/24/2012 12:55:11 AM  (Reply)
I am sorry but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
I do agree that there are a lot of people living in the "civilised" world who,lets say,don't contribute to society but are happy to sit back and reap the benefits of tax payers money.I deal with such people on a daily basis.
Its the impoverished people you should think about.The millions of kids all over the world who struggle to survive by rummaging through dumps.
Man's inhumanity to man is bad enough without introducing a predator.
Although in many cases some "humans",and I use the term loosely,do not deserve to pass on their genetic code!!
Jaxerback   posted:6/24/2012 1:31:24 AM  (Reply)
We will all be dead soon enough anyway..its the next generation who should be mulling over such matters...and their kids..
Levinus   posted:6/24/2012 7:30:07 AM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Jaxerback  posted:6/24/2012 12:55:11 AM  (Reply)
I am sorry but that statement makes no sense whatsoever.
I do agree that there are a lot of people living in the "civilised" world who,lets say,don't contribute to society but are happy to sit back and reap the benefits of tax payers money.I deal with such people on a daily basis.
Its the impoverished people you should think about.The millions of kids all over the world who struggle to survive by rummaging through dumps.
Man's inhumanity to man is bad enough without introducing a predator.
Although in many cases some "humans",and I use the term loosely,do not deserve to pass on their genetic code!!
Believe me, I'm not blind to the suffering of our species. But when we are, despite our suffering, 7 billion strong....my pity wanes slightly. Suffering is an inherent part of survival. If it was a cakewalk, then we would still have dinosaurs and dodos. To somehow think that we, as humans, are somehow undeserving of suffering is very arrogant.

We are animals, just like the rest of the creatures. Our "inhumanity" is proof of that, I think. Thus, we should have no greater expectation than to live a life as difficult and challenging as our furry brethren.

I don't deny we have starving children and horrible wars. It just seems, despite this, it is not enough. We still breed unchecked.

I can't bring myself to believe we have to regulate/legislate a breeding program. Every animal has the right to breed. But, likewise, every animal should be subject to selection as well.
Jaxerback   posted:6/24/2012 8:55:39 PM  (Reply)
So basically,you believe that we Homo sapiens as a species are nothing special.We are animals.
I would like to think that you are wrong in that assessment.
Suffering is not an inherent part of survival if you happen to be human.It is not arrogance,it is a fact.
I still have faith in humanity.
Although at times,faith can be severely tested!!
Jaxerback   posted:6/24/2012 10:39:51 PM  (Reply)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oozJH6jSr2U
Levinus   posted:6/25/2012 6:49:46 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Jaxerback  posted:6/24/2012 10:39:51 PM  (Reply)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oozJH6jSr2U
It may just be me, but I couldn't find any hidden meaning in that racket.

I did think a little about your point of view, but I honestly cannot find any difference between humans and animals. Other animals have vastly more complex communication. Other animals have better eyesight, are better builders, better killers.

Consider our origins. Hunter/gatherers with an omnivore's diet. We could hunt, build (Gobekli Tepe), craft a bow and arrow and use it to kill a buffalo.

Now take your average joe. He would be 100% useless in the wild. Do you realize how few people can even discern where due north is? Seagulls can figure it out, but there are humans that can't. Smart ones can in the day, and only the smartest can at night.

I know, I know...."we don't live in the wild." Okay. 1 in 7 americans are on foodstamps or government assistance. Which means, not only could Joe not survive in the wild, but he is useless in society too. A society that provides him with clean drinking water, libraries, roads.... Are you kidding me?

I've met people who can't read. I've met people that can barely speak their native language. I've met people who act with such primitive motivation, that they make iguanas look advanced (brainstem reference). Sex. Food. Fight. Kill. Drugs. Food. I've even met a guy who has (estimated) 56 children. What a committed father he must be.

Despite our disgusting habit of warring with one another, bellicose that we are, it still is insufficient enough to thin the herd. Like a virus, we spread, destroying as we go.

Here is another thought...we are the only species that is susceptible to things like anxiety and depression. Fibromyalgia. I promise you, wolves have harder lives, but they don't need a prescription for Xanax. Am I the only one that feels this way? That as humans, are are basically whimps? "Oh, my job is stressful...I need xanax." Yeah? A wolf faces near death just to eat a meal. Some animals BECOME the meal. Trust me, life isn't so hard for us.

We live in this cushy, happy little world. Incapable of surviving in our natural environment. We've bred ourselves OUT of survival. Seriously, go to a city and ask one of the hundreds of thousands of residents if they know where due north is. Or if they know how to start a fire.

I know I'm basically ranting on this one. But if you want the science behind it, the Department of Agriculture has tons of journals. Ironically, they are also posting adds for the masses to join up on food stamps.
Jaxerback   posted:6/25/2012 7:35:49 PM  (Reply)
And I happen to agree with you.
I think you need to calm down slightly.
You are obviously passionate in your convictions.I think your comments are brilliant!!
As I said earlier,the battle for
survival means nothing to people in the civilised world.
Ask a homeless kid who is trying to raise his siblings on the streets of Calcutta without a mother or father.
That really is sad..
Levinus   posted:6/25/2012 9:42:32 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Jaxerback  posted:6/25/2012 7:35:49 PM  (Reply)
And I happen to agree with you.
I think you need to calm down slightly.
You are obviously passionate in your convictions.I think your comments are brilliant!!
As I said earlier,the battle for
survival means nothing to people in the civilised world.
Ask a homeless kid who is trying to raise his siblings on the streets of Calcutta without a mother or father.
That really is sad..
Your comment on the homeless kid brings me to a second point. By now, I've eaten and am considerably less bitter.

Clearly there are exceptions to my rule about humans being worthless. Because, of course, there ARE survivors. There ARE individuals who, despite enormous odds, excel. Not just survive, but actually achieve important goals.

What am I suggesting? Well, we can all think of some examples of really primitive humans. And we can all think of examples of highly evolved individuals. It is possible, do you think, that we are no longer a single species?

Think about it. A drug addict, for instance, as very primitive goals. Their environment, diet, motivations, behaviors, even mating habits are vastly different than...more advanced humans. All of those things (diet, environment, etc) are all the definitions of a species, are they not? <----Not a biologist, fyi.

Has our species split into two? Those who live with very basic motivations and are generally unable to live independently of society, and those who have complex goals, think abstractly, and can adapt to any situation (societal challenges or lack of society completely.)

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this! Especially anyone with a biology background.
Danvader   posted:6/25/2012 11:46:35 PM  (Reply)
I say if it happens it happens. We do live in a cushy environment and that even at the most minimal, people who receive government help or food stamps, even those people take advantage of that helping hand. Heck there's those who make more kids just get more government food stamps, now can you imagine that? Kind of sad really. And yeah, a lot of people do have trouble figuring out where due north is. How hard can it be when all you need is at least one direction and a few landmarks, but nope... even the most hardcore of campers have a compass or something to aid them. Too technologically dependent and a lot of the population has been that way for too long. I'd be rolling over in my grave when I'm in my 70s if my kids or grandchildren couldn't start a fire or just something that's basic but can go a long way.
Danvader   posted:6/25/2012 11:47:28 PM  (Reply)
"just to get more" I meant.
Levinus   posted:6/26/2012 7:16:13 AM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Danvader  posted:6/25/2012 11:46:35 PM  (Reply)
I say if it happens it happens. We do live in a cushy environment and that even at the most minimal, people who receive government help or food stamps, even those people take advantage of that helping hand. Heck there's those who make more kids just get more government food stamps, now can you imagine that? Kind of sad really. And yeah, a lot of people do have trouble figuring out where due north is. How hard can it be when all you need is at least one direction and a few landmarks, but nope... even the most hardcore of campers have a compass or something to aid them. Too technologically dependent and a lot of the population has been that way for too long. I'd be rolling over in my grave when I'm in my 70s if my kids or grandchildren couldn't start a fire or just something that's basic but can go a long way.
Where I work, I have the advantage of seeing the inner bowels of government assistance programs.

Here is the most despicable thing I've witnessed so far:

A woman in her late teens knowingly got pregnant, even though she was already on a government program and couldn't afford her child. But having a baby increased he monthly check. Once the child was four, she had him intentionally diagnosed with ADHD. The amphetamines are free and doctor's visits (thanks to state aid). She sells the drugs for money, collects more from the government for having a "disabled" child.

Not uncommmon. I've even seen people trade of kids for tax purposes. Seriously. I've seen people on welfare driving brand new dodge chargers, tahoes, and escalades. There is money in being lazy and dishonest.

Wow, this post got political very quickly. If we did have a predator, its going to be fat, feasting on the rejects of the world.

Garuhn, I think you hit a sensitive topic for me. I wouldn't say I'm "looking forward to" a solar 2012-type event. But believe me, if it happens, I won't pity those who can't survive. With a library card at $1.50, all the knowledge to survive is available for everyone. If they'd rather spend that money on cigarettes, drugs, alcohol...so be it.

Prime example: Remember Katrina? Despite living near the Bayou, a lush and very rich environment, everyone flocked to that stupid sports dome. Or just gave up and sat on the side of the road. Hello?! You have the whole GULF COAST to survive in. Sure, the storm was a tragedy. But half of the tragedy was that people didn't have the sense to survive.
Jaxerback   posted:6/26/2012 7:35:49 PM  (Reply)
I live on a little island called Ireland on the western edge of Europe.
I am 38 years old.I have worked from the age of 11.
With my family of two kids my daughter 10 and my son of 4 we get by..although I do not see them for days due to my employment.
That is all fairly basic...until you introduce the welfare system...I will not comment further for fear of being labelled racist!!
Danvader   posted:6/26/2012 8:46:26 PM  (Reply)
Lol I don't think you have any worries there. Unless there's a rash of angry finger pointers coming through again. Nobody will label you racist.
Levinus   posted:6/27/2012 7:41:36 AM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Jaxerback  posted:6/26/2012 7:35:49 PM  (Reply)
I live on a little island called Ireland on the western edge of Europe.
I am 38 years old.I have worked from the age of 11.
With my family of two kids my daughter 10 and my son of 4 we get by..although I do not see them for days due to my employment.
That is all fairly basic...until you introduce the welfare system...I will not comment further for fear of being labelled racist!!
You won't be labeled racist! You are Irish, which means you have red hair, which means you have no soul. So how could you be racist? (Its called satire, people).

And, Jaxer, race isn't entirely out of the picture. Since this is a forum where we ask all the really hard questions, I'll bring up some info that you probably were never told in school.

Races ARE different. Very different! Any doctor worth his salt knows that African American's will face a few challenges treating blood pressure. Why? Because their bodies are engineered to retain water better. Weird stuff, but true. Look up "pharmacoethnicity" They pound into our skulls that we are all the same, but in practice, we really aren't. There are potentially millions of genetic variations between ethnic groups. Likewise, some of us can carry the genetic make up of a particular ethnicity, but have a phenotype that doesn't reflect it.

Before the industrial revolution that leveled the field, its quite possible various ethnic groups were on the trail to becoming their own independent species...unique to their environment.

Could it be that another species will emerge from another medium? Would a catalyst, like the 2012 event, bring rise to a new kind of human? One that was capable of surviving in a digital and wilderness environment?
Levinus   posted:6/27/2012 8:23:22 AM  (Reply)
On the topic, I did some reading just now. On March 7th, our little baby sun let our a gamma ray burst for the first time in recorded history-ever-in-the-world-times-infinity! It does give off a little gamma, but hardly much at all. On March 7th, it was the brightest gamma-thing in the galaxy. THE GALAXY! Score one for our solar system.

Anyway, there are theories out there that Earth got blasted by gamma ray bursts at one point. Some of the basic, multi-cellular organisms would have been stricken with mutations and cancers and genetic mishaps. It would have been a catalyst for speciation.

We were lucky and didn't have the sun's crosshairs on us this time. But we do get a little gamma action now and then. I'm not sure about super-powers, but there is certainly a chance for your average joe to get a genetic variation caused by gamma ray radiation. Or cancer.

You should all be proud of our little sun. It isn't very big and keeps pretty quiet. But on March 7th, it gamma-rayed like a boss.
Danvader   posted:6/27/2012 2:53:37 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Levinus  posted:6/27/2012 8:23:22 AM  (Reply)
On the topic, I did some reading just now. On March 7th, our little baby sun let our a gamma ray burst for the first time in recorded history-ever-in-the-world-times-infinity! It does give off a little gamma, but hardly much at all. On March 7th, it was the brightest gamma-thing in the galaxy. THE GALAXY! Score one for our solar system.

Anyway, there are theories out there that Earth got blasted by gamma ray bursts at one point. Some of the basic, multi-cellular organisms would have been stricken with mutations and cancers and genetic mishaps. It would have been a catalyst for speciation.

We were lucky and didn't have the sun's crosshairs on us this time. But we do get a little gamma action now and then. I'm not sure about super-powers, but there is certainly a chance for your average joe to get a genetic variation caused by gamma ray radiation. Or cancer.

You should all be proud of our little sun. It isn't very big and keeps pretty quiet. But on March 7th, it gamma-rayed like a boss.
LOL. that made my day.


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