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The Elusive "God particle" found!!


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Jaxerback   posted:7/5/2012 10:30:28 PM  (Reply)
A truly ground breaking discovery!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/9374758/Higgs-boson-scientists-99.999-sure-God-Particle-has-been-found.html
I for one am delighted at the news!!
Jaxerback   posted:7/5/2012 10:47:22 PM  (Reply)
I am like a kid in a sweet shop!!I am so exited about this!!!
ghost1384   posted:7/5/2012 11:08:05 PM  (Reply)
This is amazing
ghost1384   posted:7/5/2012 11:08:30 PM  (Reply)
"I think we have it. You agree?"Speaking to a packed audience Wednesday morning in Geneva, CERNdirector general Rolf Heuer confirmed that two separate teams working at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) are more than 99 percent certain they've discovered the Higgs boson, aka the God particle--or at the least a brand-new particle exactly where they expected the Higgs to be.The long-sought particle may complete the standard model of physics by explaining why objects in our universe have mass--and in so doing, why galaxies, planets, and even humans have any right to exist.(See Large Hadron Collider pictures.)"We have a discovery," Heuer said at the seminar. "We have observed a new particle consistent with a Higgs boson."At the meeting were four theorists who helped develop the Higgs theory in the 1960s, including Peter Higgs himself, who could be seen wiping away tears as the announcement was made.Although preliminary, the results show a so-called five-sigma of significance, which means that there is only a one in a million chance that the Higgs-like signal the teams observed is a statistical fluke."It's a tremendous and exciting time," said physicist Michael Tuts, who works with the ATLAS (A Toroidal LHC Apparatus) Experiment, one of the two Higgs-seeking LHC projects.The Columbia University physicist had organized a wee-hours gathering of physicists and students in the U.S. to watch the announcement, which took place at 9 a.m., Geneva time."This is the payoff. This is what you do it for."The two LHC teams searching for the Higgs--the other being the CMS (Compact Muon Solenoid) project--did so independently. Neither one knew what the other would present this morning."It was interesting that the competing experiment essentially had the same result," said physicist Ryszard Stroynowski, an ATLAS team member based at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. "It provides additional confirmation."CERN head Heuer called today's announcement a "historic milestone" but cautioned that much work lies ahead as physicists attempt to confirm the newfound particle's identity and further probe its properties.For example, though the teams are certain the new particle has the proper mass for the predicted Higgs boson, they still need to determine whether it behaves as the God particle is thought to behave--and therefore what its role in the creation and maintenance of the universe is."I think we can all be proud ... but it's a beginning," Heuer said.Higgs Boson Results Exceeded ExpectationsThe five-sigma results from both the ATLAS and CMS experiments exceeded the expectations of many physicists, including David Evans, leader of the U.K. team that works on the LHC-based ALICE (A Large Ion Collider Experiment) Collaboration.Evans had predicted Tuesday the teams would announce a four-sigma result--just short of the rigorous standard traditionally required for a new-particle observation to officially count as a true discovery and not a fluke."It's even better than I expected," said Evans, of the University of Birmingham in the U.K. "I think we can say the Higgs is here. It exists."Evans attributed the stronger-than-expected results to "a mixture of the LHC doing a fantastic job" and "ATLAS and CMS doing a fantastic job of improving their analysis since December," when the two teams announced a two-sigma observation of signs of a Higgs-like particle."So even with the same data, they can get more significance."ATLAS spokesperson Fabiola Gianotti also had high praise for the LHC, a multibillion-dollar machine that had suffered numerous mishaps and setbacks in its early days. (Related: "Electrical Glitch Delays Large Hadron Collider.")"The LHC and experiments have been doing miracles. I think we are working beyond design," the Italian particle physicist added.ALICE's Evans said he was extremely pleased by the Higgs results but admitted feeling just a bit disappointed that the results weren't more surprising."Secretly I would have loved it to be something slightly different than the standard model predictions, because that would indicate that there's something more out there."On God-Particle Hunt, It's "Easy to Fool Yourself"Wednesday's announcement builds on results from last December, when the ATLAS and CMS teams said their data suggested that the Higgs boson has a mass of about 125 gigaelectron volts (GeV)--about 125 times the mass of a proton, a positively charged particle in an atom's nucleus.(See "Hints of Higgs Boson Seen at LHC--Proof by Next Summer?")"For the first time there was a case where we expected to [rule out] the Higgs, and we weren't able to do so," said Tim Barklow, an experimental physicist with the ATLAS Experiment who's based at Stanford University's SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory.A two-sigma finding translates to about a 95 percent chance that results are not due to a statistical fluke.While that might seem impressive, it falls short of the stringent five-sigma level that high-energy physicists traditionally require for an official discovery. Five sigma means there's a less than one in a million probability that a finding is due to chance."We make these rules and impose them on ourselves because, when you are exploring on the frontier, it is easy to fool yourself," said Michael Peskin, a theoretical physicist also at SLAC.(Related: "'God Particle' May Be Five Distinct Particles, New Evidence Shows.")Higgs Holds It All Together?The Higgs boson is one of the final puzzle pieces required for a complete understanding of the standard model of physics--the so-far successful theory that explains how fundamental particles interact with the elementary forces of nature.The so-called God particle was proposed in the 1960s by Peter Higgs to explain why some particles, such as quarks--building blocks of protons, among other things--and electrons have mass, while others, such as the light-carrying photon particle, do not.Higgs's idea was that the universe is bathed in an invisible field similar to a magnetic field. Every particle feels this field--now known as the Higgs field--but to varying degrees.If a particle can move through this field with little or no interaction, there will be no drag, and that particle will have little or no mass. Alternatively, if a particle interacts significantly with the Higgs field, it will have a higher mass.The idea of the Higgs field requires the acceptance of a related particle: the Higgs boson.According to the standard model, if the Higgs field didn't exist, the universe would be a very different place, said SLAC's Peskin, who isn't involved in the LHC experiments."It would be very difficult to form atoms," Peskin said. "So our orderly world, where matter is made of atoms, and electrons form chemical bonds--we wouldn't have that if we did not have the Higgs field."In other words: no galaxies, no stars, no planets, no life on Earth."Nature Is Really Nasty" to Higgs Boson SeekersBuried beneath the French-Swiss border, the Large Hadron Collider is essentially a 17-mile-long (27-kilometer-long) oval tunnel. Inside, counter-rotating beams of protons are boosted to nearly the speed of light using an electric field before being magnetically steered into collisions.Exotic fundamental particles--some of which likely haven't existed since the early moments after the big bang--are created in the high-energy crashes. But the odd particles hang around for only fractions of a second before decaying into other particles.(Also see "Strange Particle Created; May Rewrite How Matter's Made.")Theory predicts that the Higgs boson's existence is too fleeting to be recorded by LHC instruments, but physicists think they can confirm its creation if they can spot the particles it decays into. (Explore a Higgs boson interactive.)Now that the Higgs boson--or something like it--has been confirmed to indeed have a mass of around 125 to 126 GeV, scientists have a better idea why the God particle has avoided detection for so long.This mass is just high enough to be out of reac
Levinus   posted:7/6/2012 8:43:59 AM  (Reply)
I gotta tell you guys, don't get too excited. What they really have is tons and tons of data that suggest a particle of that design exists. Likewise (and what they don't tell you), there is tons and tons of data to suggest it doesn't exist. We are talking about a very slim statistical anomaly.

I personally believe that they found something...but Higgs?

Higgs is really complicated to explain without having a knowledge of particle physics. Let me put it this way... There are models of the universe, kinda like maps of the world. These models are sometimes really good, some are really bad. One of our maps, called The Standard Model, is where our Higgs boson falls under. It is a particle that helps explain the nature of our previous 12 subatomic particles. The problem is, in this standard model...this map....is missing a huge chunk of land. The standard models can't explain the accelerating expansion of our universe. Which is a HUGE "wtf" moment for cosmologists. The equivalent is having a map...but it representing a flat world, not a round one. That's how big of an oopsie the Standard model is.

Don't get me wrong, the Standard Model works for a lot of stuff. A LOT of stuff. But it can't really explain things like gravity. Seriously. It doesn't even try to explain it. Don't think the Higgs boson explains gravity, because it doesn't. It explains mass. Gravitation is a property of mass, but they have no idea how it works. The Standard Model also doesn't explain dark matter, anti-matter and a few other major things.

Mass is part of some particles (again, the Standard Model can't attribute it to all of them). It is a fundamental aspect, like color, spin, or charge.

Here's my problem with the Higgs, and I'll try to explain it as best I can. This particle has no spin, charge, or color. As such, the Higgs field is a scalar field. This is basically special field where everything is measured nice and easy. It is a happy place without many variations or bizarre occurrences. But, like linear mathematics, scalar fields don't exist. They are useful for calculations, like adding up a grocery bill, but it all depends upon preset parameters. For example...you assume the price gas doesn't change. But it does. Scalar fields don't exist. They can't exist and still allow for statistical variance without calculation. Basically, $*%@ happens, and scalar fields don't account for it.

I feel a lot like the Higgs boson doesn't exist. It seems to me like they observed a statistical "maybe" billions of times, and then chose the easy way out by slapping the particle in a field that is simply can't exist.

So why exactly can't it exist? Well, if the Higgs attributes mass to other particles, and is also part of this magical Scalar Higgs Field...it has to have uniformity. But we all know the universe is expanding, and filled with dark matter. You can't have uniformity and an accelerating universe with a force you can't explain. Just like you can't calculate your gas receipt if the cost $ on the screen is constantly in fluctuation.

So what do I think they found? I think they found exactly what they were looking for. If you fire particles at one another with predetermined energy levels...you'll see some things happen with relative predictability. Especially after billions of attempts. If you change the energy level...your outcome changes. What they do is observe and measure the leftovers of the collision.
Here's an analogy. You are standing in a field of wheat blindfolded and deaf. Suddenly, you smell exhaust from a machine. What machine was it that went by? Remember, all you can use is the exhaust scent to identify it with. Then ANOTHER one goes by, but smells different. Then ANOTHER. You could be smelling tractors, motorcycles, cars, airplanes, rocketships...you have no idea. After about a billion times...you conclude statistically....that more tractors went by than motorcycles.

Okay. That's all well and good. And you are probably right. But that doesn't mean an airplane didn't go by too. Just like some OTHER particle didn't occur too. They found what they were looking for, BECAUSE they were looking for it. And concluding "Higgs" totally negates any other observation.

What do I think is actually out there? Well, I don't have a particle accelerator. But I think the answer is more mysterious. I think what will happen is that they will gradually hone in on Higgs and find out it has some bizarre properties, like holographic super-symmetry. Or it turns out there is a Higgsino.

One thing is for sure. Theoretical physics and experimental physics are giving each other the evil eye. I'm hoping...with all my nerdiness, that Higgs gets a little more complex and slips neatly into theoretical physics under the umbrella of Superstring. I just have issues with a model that can't explain why gravity works.
gary107   posted:7/6/2012 2:17:39 PM  (Reply)
Higgs or god particle is the thing that gives "mass" to all the other subatomic particles.
Jaxerback   posted:7/6/2012 10:25:38 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
ghost1384  posted:7/5/2012 11:08:30 PM  (Reply)
"I think we have it. You agree?"Speaking to a packed audience Wednesday morning in Geneva, CERNdirector general Rolf Heuer confirmed that two separate teams working at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) are more than 99 percent certain they've discovered the Higgs boson, aka the God particle--or at the least a brand-new particle exactly where they expected the Higgs to be.The long-sought particle may complete the standard model of physics by explaining why objects in our universe have mass--and in so doing, why galaxies, planets, and even humans have any right to exist.(See Large Hadron Collider pictures.)"We have a discovery," Heuer said at the seminar. "We have observed a new particle consistent with a Higgs boson."At the meeting were four theorists who helped develop the Higgs theory in the 1960s, including Peter Higgs himself, who could be seen wiping away tears as the announcement was made.Although preliminary, the results show a so-called five-sigma of significance, which means that there is only a one in a million chance that the Higgs-like signal the teams observed is a statistical fluke."It's a tremendous and exciting time," said physicist Michael Tuts, who works with the ATLAS (A Toroidal LHC Apparatus) Experiment, one of the two Higgs-seeking LHC projects.The Columbia University physicist had organized a wee-hours gathering of physicists and students in the U.S. to watch the announcement, which took place at 9 a.m., Geneva time."This is the payoff. This is what you do it for."The two LHC teams searching for the Higgs--the other being the CMS (Compact Muon Solenoid) project--did so independently. Neither one knew what the other would present this morning."It was interesting that the competing experiment essentially had the same result," said physicist Ryszard Stroynowski, an ATLAS team member based at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. "It provides additional confirmation."CERN head Heuer called today's announcement a "historic milestone" but cautioned that much work lies ahead as physicists attempt to confirm the newfound particle's identity and further probe its properties.For example, though the teams are certain the new particle has the proper mass for the predicted Higgs boson, they still need to determine whether it behaves as the God particle is thought to behave--and therefore what its role in the creation and maintenance of the universe is."I think we can all be proud ... but it's a beginning," Heuer said.Higgs Boson Results Exceeded ExpectationsThe five-sigma results from both the ATLAS and CMS experiments exceeded the expectations of many physicists, including David Evans, leader of the U.K. team that works on the LHC-based ALICE (A Large Ion Collider Experiment) Collaboration.Evans had predicted Tuesday the teams would announce a four-sigma result--just short of the rigorous standard traditionally required for a new-particle observation to officially count as a true discovery and not a fluke."It's even better than I expected," said Evans, of the University of Birmingham in the U.K. "I think we can say the Higgs is here. It exists."Evans attributed the stronger-than-expected results to "a mixture of the LHC doing a fantastic job" and "ATLAS and CMS doing a fantastic job of improving their analysis since December," when the two teams announced a two-sigma observation of signs of a Higgs-like particle."So even with the same data, they can get more significance."ATLAS spokesperson Fabiola Gianotti also had high praise for the LHC, a multibillion-dollar machine that had suffered numerous mishaps and setbacks in its early days. (Related: "Electrical Glitch Delays Large Hadron Collider.")"The LHC and experiments have been doing miracles. I think we are working beyond design," the Italian particle physicist added.ALICE's Evans said he was extremely pleased by the Higgs results but admitted feeling just a bit disappointed that the results weren't more surprising."Secretly I would have loved it to be something slightly different than the standard model predictions, because that would indicate that there's something more out there."On God-Particle Hunt, It's "Easy to Fool Yourself"Wednesday's announcement builds on results from last December, when the ATLAS and CMS teams said their data suggested that the Higgs boson has a mass of about 125 gigaelectron volts (GeV)--about 125 times the mass of a proton, a positively charged particle in an atom's nucleus.(See "Hints of Higgs Boson Seen at LHC--Proof by Next Summer?")"For the first time there was a case where we expected to [rule out] the Higgs, and we weren't able to do so," said Tim Barklow, an experimental physicist with the ATLAS Experiment who's based at Stanford University's SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory.A two-sigma finding translates to about a 95 percent chance that results are not due to a statistical fluke.While that might seem impressive, it falls short of the stringent five-sigma level that high-energy physicists traditionally require for an official discovery. Five sigma means there's a less than one in a million probability that a finding is due to chance."We make these rules and impose them on ourselves because, when you are exploring on the frontier, it is easy to fool yourself," said Michael Peskin, a theoretical physicist also at SLAC.(Related: "'God Particle' May Be Five Distinct Particles, New Evidence Shows.")Higgs Holds It All Together?The Higgs boson is one of the final puzzle pieces required for a complete understanding of the standard model of physics--the so-far successful theory that explains how fundamental particles interact with the elementary forces of nature.The so-called God particle was proposed in the 1960s by Peter Higgs to explain why some particles, such as quarks--building blocks of protons, among other things--and electrons have mass, while others, such as the light-carrying photon particle, do not.Higgs's idea was that the universe is bathed in an invisible field similar to a magnetic field. Every particle feels this field--now known as the Higgs field--but to varying degrees.If a particle can move through this field with little or no interaction, there will be no drag, and that particle will have little or no mass. Alternatively, if a particle interacts significantly with the Higgs field, it will have a higher mass.The idea of the Higgs field requires the acceptance of a related particle: the Higgs boson.According to the standard model, if the Higgs field didn't exist, the universe would be a very different place, said SLAC's Peskin, who isn't involved in the LHC experiments."It would be very difficult to form atoms," Peskin said. "So our orderly world, where matter is made of atoms, and electrons form chemical bonds--we wouldn't have that if we did not have the Higgs field."In other words: no galaxies, no stars, no planets, no life on Earth."Nature Is Really Nasty" to Higgs Boson SeekersBuried beneath the French-Swiss border, the Large Hadron Collider is essentially a 17-mile-long (27-kilometer-long) oval tunnel. Inside, counter-rotating beams of protons are boosted to nearly the speed of light using an electric field before being magnetically steered into collisions.Exotic fundamental particles--some of which likely haven't existed since the early moments after the big bang--are created in the high-energy crashes. But the odd particles hang around for only fractions of a second before decaying into other particles.(Also see "Strange Particle Created; May Rewrite How Matter's Made.")Theory predicts that the Higgs boson's existence is too fleeting to be recorded by LHC instruments, but physicists think they can confirm its creation if they can spot the particles it decays into. (Explore a Higgs boson interactive.)Now that the Higgs boson--or something like it--has been confirmed to indeed have a mass of around 125 to 126 GeV, scientists have a better idea why the God particle has avoided detection for so long.This mass is just high enough to be out of reac
Very well put ghost!!
Jaxerback   posted:7/6/2012 10:31:23 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
Levinus  posted:7/6/2012 8:43:59 AM  (Reply)
I gotta tell you guys, don't get too excited. What they really have is tons and tons of data that suggest a particle of that design exists. Likewise (and what they don't tell you), there is tons and tons of data to suggest it doesn't exist. We are talking about a very slim statistical anomaly.

I personally believe that they found something...but Higgs?

Higgs is really complicated to explain without having a knowledge of particle physics. Let me put it this way... There are models of the universe, kinda like maps of the world. These models are sometimes really good, some are really bad. One of our maps, called The Standard Model, is where our Higgs boson falls under. It is a particle that helps explain the nature of our previous 12 subatomic particles. The problem is, in this standard model...this map....is missing a huge chunk of land. The standard models can't explain the accelerating expansion of our universe. Which is a HUGE "wtf" moment for cosmologists. The equivalent is having a map...but it representing a flat world, not a round one. That's how big of an oopsie the Standard model is.

Don't get me wrong, the Standard Model works for a lot of stuff. A LOT of stuff. But it can't really explain things like gravity. Seriously. It doesn't even try to explain it. Don't think the Higgs boson explains gravity, because it doesn't. It explains mass. Gravitation is a property of mass, but they have no idea how it works. The Standard Model also doesn't explain dark matter, anti-matter and a few other major things.

Mass is part of some particles (again, the Standard Model can't attribute it to all of them). It is a fundamental aspect, like color, spin, or charge.

Here's my problem with the Higgs, and I'll try to explain it as best I can. This particle has no spin, charge, or color. As such, the Higgs field is a scalar field. This is basically special field where everything is measured nice and easy. It is a happy place without many variations or bizarre occurrences. But, like linear mathematics, scalar fields don't exist. They are useful for calculations, like adding up a grocery bill, but it all depends upon preset parameters. For example...you assume the price gas doesn't change. But it does. Scalar fields don't exist. They can't exist and still allow for statistical variance without calculation. Basically, $*%@ happens, and scalar fields don't account for it.

I feel a lot like the Higgs boson doesn't exist. It seems to me like they observed a statistical "maybe" billions of times, and then chose the easy way out by slapping the particle in a field that is simply can't exist.

So why exactly can't it exist? Well, if the Higgs attributes mass to other particles, and is also part of this magical Scalar Higgs Field...it has to have uniformity. But we all know the universe is expanding, and filled with dark matter. You can't have uniformity and an accelerating universe with a force you can't explain. Just like you can't calculate your gas receipt if the cost $ on the screen is constantly in fluctuation.

So what do I think they found? I think they found exactly what they were looking for. If you fire particles at one another with predetermined energy levels...you'll see some things happen with relative predictability. Especially after billions of attempts. If you change the energy level...your outcome changes. What they do is observe and measure the leftovers of the collision.
Here's an analogy. You are standing in a field of wheat blindfolded and deaf. Suddenly, you smell exhaust from a machine. What machine was it that went by? Remember, all you can use is the exhaust scent to identify it with. Then ANOTHER one goes by, but smells different. Then ANOTHER. You could be smelling tractors, motorcycles, cars, airplanes, rocketships...you have no idea. After about a billion times...you conclude statistically....that more tractors went by than motorcycles.

Okay. That's all well and good. And you are probably right. But that doesn't mean an airplane didn't go by too. Just like some OTHER particle didn't occur too. They found what they were looking for, BECAUSE they were looking for it. And concluding "Higgs" totally negates any other observation.

What do I think is actually out there? Well, I don't have a particle accelerator. But I think the answer is more mysterious. I think what will happen is that they will gradually hone in on Higgs and find out it has some bizarre properties, like holographic super-symmetry. Or it turns out there is a Higgsino.

One thing is for sure. Theoretical physics and experimental physics are giving each other the evil eye. I'm hoping...with all my nerdiness, that Higgs gets a little more complex and slips neatly into theoretical physics under the umbrella of Superstring. I just have issues with a model that can't explain why gravity works.
Have a day off Lev,and just be positive!!
LincolnGenghis   posted:9/16/2012 11:49:28 AM  (Reply)


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