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Skeptic vs. Witness


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Levinus   posted:9/8/2011 7:50:18 AM  (Reply)
I've seen some stuff.  More than I care to remember.  I've seen ghosts, and ghostly things.  I've seen UFO's before.  I LOVE the paranormal.  I'm fascinated by it. I feel like sometimes my posts confuse people though.  I'm always pressing for data, facts, records, graphs, studies, references, etc.  I thought I would explain my position and see the reaction it gets.  I'm curious if everyone thinks it is a sound decision, a moral ground, or if I could possibly be more refined in my stance. I am, undoubtedly, a witness to the paranormal.  Despite this, I am shamelessly devoted to the scientific method.  Skeptics, I think, too easily explain things away without putting their own explanation under equal scrutiny.  For example "It was swamp gas."  Or "The house is settling."  But they leave it at that and don't put it under the same rigors expected from the claimant.  If a witness says "It was an appirition!", skeptics insist on proof.  But when a skeptic says "It was fog." no proof is required. Likewise, there are some paranormal junkies who don't give science its due credit.  They dismiss it, fear it.  They see science as a threat to their belief system, because it could potentially "disprove" everything they hold to be true.  I really wish there could be an understanding with this.  Science is not here to PROVE anything.  It exists as a method of understanding.  It is a unrefutable organization of data.  Nothing more. So as I thought about this, I realized something.  I cannot say truly that I believe in ghosts!  I know I have seen something, felt something, been attacked by something.  But I can't say precisely what.  Before, it was convenient to say "Oh it was a ghost."  Now, however, it would seem that is hypocrisy.  So my final position, even on my own experiences, is that I can't say for sure what it was.  I can describe in detail what happened, but without more data, I can't draw a conclusion. Heartbreaking isn't it?  No more believing.  Don't confuse this with doubt though.  I know truly that there are several phenomenon worth heavy scientific investigation.  Some are regrettably attributed with disreputation.  What does everyone think about this?  It honestly pulls at my heart to think that I can't simply "believe" anymore.  But somehow, it feels right to know I am sticking to my core values.
JOSMAN087   posted:9/8/2011 8:41:49 AM  (Reply)
Everything you just wrote, EVERYTHING, is what i know to be true.  I also cant say an experience was this or that.  It is a scary thing to thing that someone or something can harm you and you cant do anthing about it.  It is the same way with religion and science.  I believe that religion and spirituality have the same views you just posted by themselves but when you put them together you get answers.  (Mathmatics/science religion/spirituality = Truth/answers).  It can even be viewed as an equation.  People ive talked to get so defensive when i ask them if they managed to get a vid or pic, and i believe them.  I believe everyone until they give me a reason not to.  But i believe we all need to start thinking this way......GREAT POST LEVINUS!
spiritech0   posted:9/8/2011 12:32:54 PM  (Reply)
Levinus, the words you've used make me think you're paranormally depressed. You've accepted your existance, and now you must accept everything else's. You can't travel two paths at once. I suggest you find a mountain 'vortex' and reboot, but don't forget to bring your paranormal investigation equipment. On that, I think it's funny that most people would rather trust pre-calibrated artificial machines than their own natural senses. Computers compute, and people populate. Attack of the Clones!
JOSMAN087   posted:9/8/2011 4:17:35 PM  (Reply)

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spiritech0  posted:9/8/2011 12:32:54 PM  (Reply)
Levinus, the words you've used make me think you're paranormally depressed. You've accepted your existance, and now you must accept everything else's. You can't travel two paths at once. I suggest you find a mountain 'vortex' and reboot, but don't forget to bring your paranormal investigation equipment. On that, I think it's funny that most people would rather trust pre-calibrated artificial machines than their own natural senses. Computers compute, and people populate. Attack of the Clones!
All equipment needs to be tuned and so does the natural senses, not everyone has the same senses, so not everyone experiences the same things.  If you have a way to tune in those that dont to the same frequency then i would love to know how.  And although meditation is great it also doesnt work for everyone.
Levinus   posted:9/8/2011 6:10:58 PM  (Reply)
I don't think I'm "paranormally depressed", and I beg to differ.  I CAN walk two paths at once.  A skeptical witness.  A photon is both a particle and a wave.  I can be both a skeptic and a witness.  I feel more sure of the subject than I ever have.  I do regret not being able to just believe as I once did.  But I'm glad I found a comprimise.
spiritech0   posted:9/8/2011 7:43:02 PM  (Reply)

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Levinus  posted:9/8/2011 6:10:58 PM  (Reply)
I don't think I'm "paranormally depressed", and I beg to differ.  I CAN walk two paths at once.  A skeptical witness.  A photon is both a particle and a wave.  I can be both a skeptic and a witness.  I feel more sure of the subject than I ever have.  I do regret not being able to just believe as I once did.  But I'm glad I found a comprimise.
Thank you for 'splaining yourself Levi. Now I get where you're coming from, and it ain't Sirius. Ha! Secret scientists, mystics and the unimaginative must agree that something interesting is going on. "All of physics is either impossible or trivial. It is impossible until you understand it, and then it becomes trivial." -Ernest Rutherford
spiritech0   posted:9/8/2011 7:45:09 PM  (Reply)

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Levinus  posted:9/8/2011 6:10:58 PM  (Reply)
I don't think I'm "paranormally depressed", and I beg to differ.  I CAN walk two paths at once.  A skeptical witness.  A photon is both a particle and a wave.  I can be both a skeptic and a witness.  I feel more sure of the subject than I ever have.  I do regret not being able to just believe as I once did.  But I'm glad I found a comprimise.
[random] Photons... So that's how Green Lantern functions!
LincolnGenghis   posted:9/9/2011 1:44:39 AM  (Reply)
I would have liked to think that Green Lantern gets his power from the Spirits. (Jim Beam and Beer)Well thats ruined for me now.
jaguarsky   posted:9/10/2011 11:39:13 AM  (Reply)
I am an unabashed believer. I am also one of the most skeptical persons you will ever meet. I don't find any problem with that. I see no hipocrisy. I am a witness to a number of "paranormal" events and I don't blame people for not believing the things I have experienced, as I also doubt most stories other people tell me, simply because I know how easy it is to misinterpret events. I want to talk to that person and understand all the information about the time, place, state of mind, etc., before I make a decision regarding their tale. Just as I would expect them to ask of me.You are being much too hard on yourself. Relax and go with the flow.
monica1968   posted:9/10/2011 12:58:24 PM  (Reply)
 Well my two pence worth.......i Used to put all paranormal things happeneing in my house to ghosts and such like.....[lightbulbs going off and on....even once seeing a light where there wasnt any bulbs, stuff being moved things going bump in the night....until i woke up.....and realised that it probably wasnt ghosts but something else......is like relearning everything you once thought you knew....a bit like finding out as a child that santa doesnt exist.......
Levinus   posted:9/12/2011 11:46:20 PM  (Reply)
I definatly got some sound advice from all of you.  Jaguar, I really like yours.  "Relax and go with the flow."  Which I interpret as "Perhaps modifying my approach should change, based on the situation." Monica, you brought up a good one too.  Despite everything I know and my faith in data, I can't be afraid to relearn a new method either.
Omen502   posted:9/13/2011 6:17:36 AM  (Reply)
      I am in accord with levinus. . .  However if we are not the scientists and we have not the instruments in monitoring science properly then what.  I know that there are a lot of false things going on in the science world.  I love science and respect it greatly but we have all been taught wrong and lied to.  We dont know for sure what is going on because we are in a world where the ones controlling are the biggest lying pieces of crap known to men.  I dont really have any faith in the instruments used in detecting paranormal either.  I do believe there is something there,  but not exactly sure what.  Well,  I am learning and this is why we are at this site.  To learn and determine for ourselves just what is real.   So I thank you for bringing this up levinus.  Well  without going on and on,  It's hard to believe in things we dont know it's even harder to have faith.   I think we should all still just keep open and use our abilities from within to discern between fact or fiction.  We are all iin the same fight on the same side and we deserve better than what we have been shown,  question is guys,  "Turth!  Can we handle the TRUTH?"
Levinus   posted:9/18/2011 9:38:33 PM  (Reply)
Omen, you bring up a very good point.  A depressing point.  A shameful point! Science hasn't invested in the paranormal at all, which is really odd, if you think about it.  The paranormal may unlock things like immortality, a cure for AIDS, the ability to fly...etc. And if you are NOT a scientist, fear not.  You have the most powerful instrument available.  YOUR BRAIN.  Even if you don't understand what you saw, RECORD.  Data.  Lots of data.  I LOVE data.  I sleep with data. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence.  And the more data you can provide the better.  Data is the best tool of science.  It is impartial, factual, irrefutable.  Data doesn't mean you are making a decision, or taking a side.  It is only an observation.  But it is an observation that could unlock the secrets to the world.
monica1968   posted:9/19/2011 2:43:19 PM  (Reply)

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Levinus  posted:9/18/2011 9:38:33 PM  (Reply)
Omen, you bring up a very good point.  A depressing point.  A shameful point! Science hasn't invested in the paranormal at all, which is really odd, if you think about it.  The paranormal may unlock things like immortality, a cure for AIDS, the ability to fly...etc. And if you are NOT a scientist, fear not.  You have the most powerful instrument available.  YOUR BRAIN.  Even if you don't understand what you saw, RECORD.  Data.  Lots of data.  I LOVE data.  I sleep with data. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence.  And the more data you can provide the better.  Data is the best tool of science.  It is impartial, factual, irrefutable.  Data doesn't mean you are making a decision, or taking a side.  It is only an observation.  But it is an observation that could unlock the secrets to the world.
Hmmm....although not all data can be irrefutable.....take for instance the  humble speed camera......there have been many many cases brought to court where drivers have been found guilty of speeding, but it later transpired the said "instrument of truth" the camera was at fault...it hadnt been calibrated, a human error maybe but nonetheless an error....and i suppose this can be applied to other such recorders of "data".....not is all as it seems....and Levinus there is data and statistics to back this up too
wavygravy7   posted:9/19/2011 4:46:24 PM  (Reply)
It comes down to there are things that science can not explain.If science fails to explain a paranormal event that does not mean it didnt happen.I can not prove that I love my daughter,but I do and its real.Someday in time,science will be able to prove some of this paranormal activity.


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