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breeld   posted:2/2/2012 6:11:18 AM  (Reply)
What I`m wondering is, how do you know, with absolute certainty, what you believe in? Let me explain.

I was raised in the worst fundamentalism way (pentacostal religion). All that fear, dread, etc. was crammed into my little sensitive head since I was a baby. As I grew older, I started questioning things I was taught. So I got out of religion completely. Looking for SOMETHING, I tried other religions ie; Jehovah`s witnesses, Mormanism, etc. Nothing fit. They all seemed like a bunch of crock. After I got a little older, I tried fundamentalism again. (yuck! still a bunch of crock) Anyway, I now consider myself agnostic, with leanings toward atheism. (by the way, my father was a pentacostal minister.) It has been many years since I have considered myself a "believer" in christianity, and I still don`t know what I believe in! I tend to think there are other beings besides we humans, yet even tho I`ve seen what I consider a UFO, no one really knows. I guess I feel like believing in aliens, which I haven`t actually seen, is like trying to believe in a god that I haven`t seen. Some of you seem so certain in what you deem to be your truth, so I guess what I`m asking is how you came to your conclusions about what you believe, or is anyone as confused as I am? I mean, how do you "know"?
breeld   posted:2/2/2012 6:52:33 AM  (Reply)
Forgot to mention these other interesting, but confusing, little tidbits:
Some say we`re in a matrix, are a hologram, we exist only in our minds, etc. etc. So much stuff to take in, and where is the line drawn between theory and fantasy?
spiritech0   posted:2/2/2012 10:32:01 AM  (Reply)
BreeLD, you draw that line between confusion and knowledge yourself. Sure, religion is a system of control, but so is your body, the spinning of atoms and galaxy clusters, and the dynamics of Interaction. After a few episodes of "Ancient Aliens", the Gods start losing their luster. Emphasis on lust (there is no end to matter, passion, or unfulfilled desire). Immortality may be like the fictional character "Dr.26Carol" whose technology allows the transfer of her inner self into a cloned body so she can continue to expand her scientific studies. A body has needs. Or if you venture into psychic and/or ghost phenomena, you may conclude many other ideas about what is done with existence.

For me, good and evil may as well be like the business ends of a battery. Why? Because individualism is defining. Now go convince a hive mind and supernovae about that. Or not.

One's reaction to experience determines plenty, so by all means available go exploring. There is little reason as to why naked savages still live in the Amazon and why publicly known Astro/Cosmonauts are few. Mostly, your sense of wonder is enough to move you beyond the question marks to find joy. Enjoy it.
jaguarsky   posted:2/2/2012 11:39:29 AM  (Reply)
I was raised in a fundi home as well. I gave up on that particular spin on faith and religion at about the age of 4. Too much hate, fear and intolerance for me; much to the chagrin of my parents I might add.

There are very few things that I absolutely believe: conciousness exists beyond death. I don't know how or why, I just know what I have experienced. I leave the rest to science to figure out. I believe that there is an absolute connectedness in ALL things. I know that many living creature possess a "soul", because they are capable of love. Those are the absolutes.

The other things, UFO's, Bigfoot, things of that nature; I have a belief in, but I am also willing to listen to other explainations. I know a lot of the things people "see" are mis-identified. I have done that myself on plenty of occasions. The bottom line is that as previously posted it is up to the individual to find what their heart, mind and soul can agree on. Does that mean the belief/faith that comes of that is the only correct one? Nope, not even close, at least in my opinion. Creation is dynamic, always changing, past, present and future; all entangled, ever re-creating.
breeld   posted:2/2/2012 3:38:35 PM  (Reply)
jaguarsky:
I, too, am beginning to understand about everyone/everything being connected. I also believe we exist after death (for reasons I won`t go into on this post). But that is just MY truth-and who`s to say it really IS the truth? I guess I want to know everything DEFINITELY, for sure, without a doubt. lol

spiritech0:
You put it much more aptly than I. Instead of fantasy and theory, you said confusion and knowledge.
Makes sense. I spend much of my time exploring, such as it is. I run out of places to look. Any sites you could recommend so that I could expand my knowledge?
Levinus   posted:2/3/2012 8:35:44 AM  (Reply)
I find that having a healthy view of belief is the best place to start. I love science, you see. I love the scientific method. Every scientific law and principle is constantly under the scrutiny of observation and testing. Which means, a theory can change. What we know to be true will change over time. Magnets are not magical. The earth is not flat. We are NOT the center of our solar system.

Belief is much the same way. You can deduce from your observations what seems to be "true". You can commit to it, act on it. But you must do so with an admittance of ignorance. Truthfully, we just don't know what will happen when we die. You can believe one outcome is more probable than another, but keep in mind...your ideas may change. Certainly age plays a role in this as well.

This is partly why religions tend to house the ignorant. Religions do not change their views. They do not admit ignorance. They do not subject themselves to testing or hypothesis.

I'm not saying their isn't a god. I'm simply saying that people who worship old books and burn witches are pretty dumb (scientific observation, not opinion).

Personally, I believe there is some manner of existence after death. Consciousness? Ghostiness? Rebirth? Who knows. But that believe makes me fear death far less. It makes me live more fully.

Which brings me to my last point. In addition to admitting your beliefs change, it is a good idea to follow a doctrine or concept that enriches your life. Regardless of what it may be. Paganism, Buddhism, cooking, writing, parkour, whatever. If your life is enriched, your are happy and content, then DO THAT.
godlypunk   posted:2/3/2012 9:21:42 AM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
breeld  posted:2/2/2012 6:11:18 AM  (Reply)
What I`m wondering is, how do you know, with absolute certainty, what you believe in? Let me explain.

I was raised in the worst fundamentalism way (pentacostal religion). All that fear, dread, etc. was crammed into my little sensitive head since I was a baby. As I grew older, I started questioning things I was taught. So I got out of religion completely. Looking for SOMETHING, I tried other religions ie; Jehovah`s witnesses, Mormanism, etc. Nothing fit. They all seemed like a bunch of crock. After I got a little older, I tried fundamentalism again. (yuck! still a bunch of crock) Anyway, I now consider myself agnostic, with leanings toward atheism. (by the way, my father was a pentacostal minister.) It has been many years since I have considered myself a "believer" in christianity, and I still don`t know what I believe in! I tend to think there are other beings besides we humans, yet even tho I`ve seen what I consider a UFO, no one really knows. I guess I feel like believing in aliens, which I haven`t actually seen, is like trying to believe in a god that I haven`t seen. Some of you seem so certain in what you deem to be your truth, so I guess what I`m asking is how you came to your conclusions about what you believe, or is anyone as confused as I am? I mean, how do you "know"?
Well, I must be lucky? If you witness aliens, it tends to rip a large gap into the fabric of what we were taught is reality.

Good for you for getting out of religion. Regardless of what anyone says, each one of us has to find our own path. I've never been able to stomach 'going with the flow'. Following what everyone else 'says' is the truth. I think for most it makes them feel better to belong to a team...whether it be religion, sports, etc. there is a major draw to being part of something bigger than ones self. I suppose that is why it's so popular. It's what I call the sheep mentality...no one wants to be left alone on the hillside when they have beaten into your head, the idea of the wolf (hell). If a religion can make you believe that they 'own' your soul then they have you. It's a mind game.

You might try something more open, if you haven't already, like paganism. It has no real walls of tight beliefs other than the knowledge that there is something bigger than the self but that also encompasses the self. It's more of a way of looking at reality as opposed to religion. Unlike most religions, it shows that the devine is everything instead of a man on a cloud issueing orders or a devil. Christianity puts god and the devil as some outside force that pulls this way and that...with a manual (bible) that we are left to conveniently interpret. It's all a bit simple and, in my oppinion, hog wash. Even people who die and come back describe something very different than what the tired old bible says is truth. History is full of some interesting editing it seems.
breeld   posted:2/3/2012 8:04:15 PM  (Reply)
Levinus and Godlypunk: thanks so much for your reply. Everything you say makes so much sense. Now here is where the really dumb part comes in. Godlypunk, you suggested paganism. That, among other things has caught my attention. But even now, although I don`t think the bible is all its cracked up to be, (in other words, its written by man to control man), when I think of going outside the box, some of that old fear from all those years of religious brainwashing rears its ugly head. Actually I`m starting to branch out-like researching remote viewing, astral travel, among other things. Still, that little bit of fear lurks there. Like, "what will happen to me if I try this, or try that". I get angry when I think of how the church programmed my brain!
Anyway, I read a lot of things, like near death experiences, reincarnation, etc. My eyes are finally starting to open to things I was afraid to believe in.

Belief is much the same way. You can deduce from your observations what seems to be "true". You can commit to it, act on it. But you must do so with an admittance of ignorance. Truthfully, we just don't know what will happen when we die. You can believe one outcome is more probable than another, but keep in mind...your ideas may change. Certainly age plays a role in this as well.

Levinus, that statement just kinda smacked me between the eyes! lol
erysian   posted:2/4/2012 3:35:46 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
godlypunk  posted:2/3/2012 9:21:42 AM  (Reply)
Well, I must be lucky? If you witness aliens, it tends to rip a large gap into the fabric of what we were taught is reality.

Good for you for getting out of religion. Regardless of what anyone says, each one of us has to find our own path. I've never been able to stomach 'going with the flow'. Following what everyone else 'says' is the truth. I think for most it makes them feel better to belong to a team...whether it be religion, sports, etc. there is a major draw to being part of something bigger than ones self. I suppose that is why it's so popular. It's what I call the sheep mentality...no one wants to be left alone on the hillside when they have beaten into your head, the idea of the wolf (hell). If a religion can make you believe that they 'own' your soul then they have you. It's a mind game.

You might try something more open, if you haven't already, like paganism. It has no real walls of tight beliefs other than the knowledge that there is something bigger than the self but that also encompasses the self. It's more of a way of looking at reality as opposed to religion. Unlike most religions, it shows that the devine is everything instead of a man on a cloud issueing orders or a devil. Christianity puts god and the devil as some outside force that pulls this way and that...with a manual (bible) that we are left to conveniently interpret. It's all a bit simple and, in my oppinion, hog wash. Even people who die and come back describe something very different than what the tired old bible says is truth. History is full of some interesting editing it seems.
" If you witness aliens, it tends to rip a large gap into the fabric of what we were taught is reality. "

So have you personally witnessed aliens? If so, please share what you saw.
macros72   posted:2/4/2012 7:13:12 PM  (Reply)
I have been witness to what we call ET and it was a very terrifing ordeal. It reduces you to a child in deep controlled terror and yes you scream and fight like a desperate animal trying to escape. And I must agree that it does indeed rip away the comfortable view of reality we all share.

I woke up one morning and showered. I noticed 4 red marks on my left leg - equally spaced along the shin. The night before I had felt uneasy and kept thinking about the house being secure. It was like a fog had hit me that previous evening leaving me paranoid about keeping others out. I went to bed later than normal with this mysterious feeling of worry. Surprisingly, I soon managed to fall into sleep.

Now after finding these marks on my leg I began to develop minor phobias. A work colleague touches my arm and this triggers a very brief dread reaction within me. Walking home from work I overhere a group of youths walking ahead of me. They mention something about; eyes, terrified and the word trapped. For some reason my mind picked out these words which then resulted in a similar reaction to the touch on my arm. I go to get my hair cut and feel uneasy as my head is touched and moved. Ive known the hairdresser for years and now find I feel on edge when he touches me. I return home thiking WTF is going on?

Im eventually led to therapy with the help of friends who have noticed this change within my personality.

I end up going for relaxation massage and hypnotherapy. The latter reveals blocks that seem to be the cause of my newly developed phobias and nervous reactions. I actually feel better after this but still question the blocks. I soon return and ask for more hypnotherapy. I want to learn the secrets that are hidden from me.

In trance Im now two people; one wishing to keep everything as it is and another hidden personality. This hidden person holds on to its secrets and doesnt wish to reveal. Im taken back further to the evening of tension. The hidden personality seems very happy to talk here. It describes itself as being me and sings praise - great person, so clever, so caring etc. When asked more about the evening, it reveals that Ive become aware of something coming. This other personality loves me and is here to help when it arrives - it was placed there to help.

I go to bed and still feel afraid of something that isnt there. I fall into sleep and wake up - the room is cold.

I become puzzled by what seem to be and act like toy dolls near my curtains. Then above me comes another one of these things and i scream in disbelief. Its above me looking at my face, seems to have passed partially through the wall. God I scream, god I try to get away and find my voice has gone! It close to my face when it places a very cold small disc on my forehead and then my body just goes numb. It actually feels like a lump of metal is now attached to my neck. I scream and curse and begin to loose myself and feel like a child scared of the dark.

All of this has just happend in what must be two seconds.

The ceilings now gone, can see the sky and a small egg shaped thing - not disc shaped. I leave the bed and whoosh inside it i go.

I wont reveal the rest as Im expecting laughter and insults from you guys here - but it did happen!

All I will add is that when i was back in my bed the doll things near the curtains seemed to have previously brought me back and tucked me into the duvet. They then lingered near the curtains before moving away. My other self spoke of both events happening at the same time.

This is a true account and did happen to me. I only wish others will back this up by sharing their experiences.

Now mock me all you like as Im not bothered!



breeld   posted:2/5/2012 5:19:16 AM  (Reply)
Well, macros72, thankfully I`ve not had that experience. BUT...I`ve read other people's story that sounded similar enough to yours to make me think these things have to be happening to people. I, for one, would be very interested in hearing the rest of your story.

spiritech0   posted:2/6/2012 10:24:36 AM  (Reply)
Macros72, I believe you 100%.
Ars Mysteriorum   posted:2/7/2012 10:10:10 AM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
breeld  posted:2/2/2012 6:11:18 AM  (Reply)
What I`m wondering is, how do you know, with absolute certainty, what you believe in? Let me explain.

I was raised in the worst fundamentalism way (pentacostal religion). All that fear, dread, etc. was crammed into my little sensitive head since I was a baby. As I grew older, I started questioning things I was taught. So I got out of religion completely. Looking for SOMETHING, I tried other religions ie; Jehovah`s witnesses, Mormanism, etc. Nothing fit. They all seemed like a bunch of crock. After I got a little older, I tried fundamentalism again. (yuck! still a bunch of crock) Anyway, I now consider myself agnostic, with leanings toward atheism. (by the way, my father was a pentacostal minister.) It has been many years since I have considered myself a "believer" in christianity, and I still don`t know what I believe in! I tend to think there are other beings besides we humans, yet even tho I`ve seen what I consider a UFO, no one really knows. I guess I feel like believing in aliens, which I haven`t actually seen, is like trying to believe in a god that I haven`t seen. Some of you seem so certain in what you deem to be your truth, so I guess what I`m asking is how you came to your conclusions about what you believe, or is anyone as confused as I am? I mean, how do you "know"?
Let us skip the usual semantics of what 'knowing' is and discard the exaggerated form of Cartesian dualism that asserts the realm of the mind defines the realm of the real; rather let us accept that the mind is what perceives the real. Having removed these two vague counter-arguments, one can find more plausible solutions.

Consider the notion of god by the Stoics:

"The main objective of Stoics is to overcome the dualism between mind and matter taught by other philosophical schools. The Stoics achieve this goal by identifying mind and matter with each other and with God. They therefore propose a totally unitary reality, a monism in which God is mind, God is matter, God is the universe. One may speak of mind and matter, but this is merely a fa├žon de parler. For the Stoics, everything that acts is a body. There is a continuum between mind and body. They are completely translatable into one another; they are simply two ways of viewing the content in the continuum. In Stoic physics, matter is not 'dead' matter in the Cartesian sense; it is dynamic, charged with vital force. Mind is not something external to matter, an abstract ideal quality, a principle of rest toward which an imperfect material world transpires; it is rather an active principle, the creative force permeating the universe and holding it together. God is called by several names in Stoic physics--the 'logos', the rational structure of the universe; 'pneuma', the fiery breath of life, the creative fire; or 'tonos', the vital tension holding each thing together within itself and making the whole universe cohere. The entire universe, or God, constitutes one living organism, at the same time sentient, rational, and material, existing in and of itself. The universe is its own creative force and its own source of growth, change, and activity. God, or the universe, is not only its own cause; it is the one cause and explanation of all things."

(Marcia L. Colish, The Stoic Tradition from Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages, pp. 23-4)


The notion of a god that is not removed to a separate plane, but rather interacts in the same reality we dwell in provides a basis where knowledge of the natural world works in conjunction with belief or 'faith' rather than against it.

Consider that nature appears to be self-organizing. Science long operated under the assumption of the existence of a guiding intelligence that perpetually and actively operates to balance the forces of nature, and the purpose of science was to understand nature and thus the mind of that intelligence; hence why such knowledgeable individuals, such as the mathematician, cartographer, and magus John Dee, eventually experimented with direct communication with the angels to connect the scholarly learning to achieve more concrete conclusions regarding nature's connection to God.

We often color such individuals as eccentrics that were not the norm, but there are a great number of intelligent and learned individuals that contributed to science 'in spite of' their arcane beliefs, such as the doctor who is credited with revolutionizing medicine, Philippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim (better known as Paracelsus). Paracelsus, as well as other doctors, carefully studied astrology and used herbs that were connected to the astrologically organized groups spirits in their doctoring. Despite such irrational and unlikely means, doctors used these herbs to great effect and often included orations and talismans bearing the names of angels (Paracelsus included).

These men did not merely believe, but knew that God existed and that his agents actively participated in mankind's experience.

The advent of psychology in an era where man eschewed religion and all of its notions for political reasons is the legacy of the modern era: to believe that all things spiritual are farcical and removed from the proper station of learning and science. Further, philosophy was effected as well and shaped the modern idea that all reality is subject to the whims of the observer.

Clearly, as a friend of mine states, such notions that 'nothing is real' are quickly dispelled when one slams another's hand in a car door. Real enough for all parties involved, no matter what the person believes.

Anyways, if one considers nature the evidence of the presence and mind of god, one is capable of searching history and connecting it with scientific observations to conclusions in accordance to the idea that god does exist and that it is quite physical.
breeld   posted:2/7/2012 1:59:48 PM  (Reply)
Ars Mysteriorum: Ok, I`m not saying that for sure that god isn`t real, but I definitely don`t believe in the god I was taught about from the bible. The bible god sounds like a really mixed-up character.
Anyways, all the arguments lead back to "where did god come from, how did he create the universe, etc."
It`s surely mind-boggling when you let your little human mind go wandering.
I`ve never read of these men you mention, but I`ll definitely be looking them up now.
Thanks for that.
btw/can you describe god or tell me who he/she is? Such as, a spirit being?
spiritech0   posted:2/7/2012 2:17:30 PM  (Reply)
I second that, BreeLD. How does Ars-M describe "god"?
godlypunk   posted:2/7/2012 2:53:09 PM  (Reply)

In Reply To:
breeld  posted:2/3/2012 8:04:15 PM  (Reply)
Levinus and Godlypunk: thanks so much for your reply. Everything you say makes so much sense. Now here is where the really dumb part comes in. Godlypunk, you suggested paganism. That, among other things has caught my attention. But even now, although I don`t think the bible is all its cracked up to be, (in other words, its written by man to control man), when I think of going outside the box, some of that old fear from all those years of religious brainwashing rears its ugly head. Actually I`m starting to branch out-like researching remote viewing, astral travel, among other things. Still, that little bit of fear lurks there. Like, "what will happen to me if I try this, or try that". I get angry when I think of how the church programmed my brain!
Anyway, I read a lot of things, like near death experiences, reincarnation, etc. My eyes are finally starting to open to things I was afraid to believe in.

Belief is much the same way. You can deduce from your observations what seems to be "true". You can commit to it, act on it. But you must do so with an admittance of ignorance. Truthfully, we just don't know what will happen when we die. You can believe one outcome is more probable than another, but keep in mind...your ideas may change. Certainly age plays a role in this as well.

Levinus, that statement just kinda smacked me between the eyes! lol
I guess what I was trying to say was that if I can experience it then I will believe it. Paganism makes so much more sense to me as a mindset than anything else. I understand the fear. I was brought up pentecostal and wow...after the church basically told me I needed to leave at 18, I happily did so. I saw through too much of their doctrine, read the bible 6 times and was ready to leave. I don't know how to tell you to move away from the fear. For me it came naturally as I opened my mind to the worlds religions and spirituality. I quickly observed what mattered and what didn't.
breeld   posted:2/7/2012 3:38:30 PM  (Reply)
Well, my mind has definitely been opened to all the falsehoods in religion. And I am slowly but surely getting away from the fear, a little at a time. Wish I could do it quicker lol. One thing that has helped me tremendously is this site. As I read the posts, I realize I`m not alone, here. It really helps to be able to ask questions and express my thoughts.
I`m in the deep south, so as you can probably surmise, I can`t talk to a lot of folks around here about how I feel and what I think. This is definitely the bible belt.
I am also one that needs to experience it to believe it. Not that I doubt what other ppl say they have experienced, but as I said, that`s THEIR truth. I`m still looking for mine.
gary107   posted:2/8/2012 12:24:35 PM  (Reply)
There is what we act on, for we are what we do, for some what we do do. I have not seen an ET or UFO, but neither have I seen a Blue Whale. I hope the ETs have six digits on each hand and cling to a device that makes them part of a collective mind. I also hope that pur Earth is somekind of genetic penal colony. I wish that they are "better" folks than what we have here about. This is all what is hoped for, not what is known with a certainty. On these issues we wait.
gary107   posted:2/8/2012 12:26:22 PM  (Reply)
/our Earth is somekind...
breeld   posted:2/8/2012 1:28:51 PM  (Reply)
True, Gary. I hope they`re better, too. Sure would be horrible if they were worse than some of the ppl on earth.


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